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200 yard Moving Target Ranges
- carnaby
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09 Nov 2009 11:07 #131
by carnaby
PNK's comment 'This also means that it is probable that other likely stations travelled to nearby MTRs' is important. My satnav gives the journey to Hell's Mouth as 26 miles - 53 minutes. A fair journey to be made several times a week. Typical for other sites? I don't know.
Graham
Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite
Replied by carnaby on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
Agreed Peter - I was hoping Llandwrog was equipped with an MTR. I should have consulted my Doylerush book earlier.Spoil sports!
PNK's comment 'This also means that it is probable that other likely stations travelled to nearby MTRs' is important. My satnav gives the journey to Hell's Mouth as 26 miles - 53 minutes. A fair journey to be made several times a week. Typical for other sites? I don't know.
Graham
Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite
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- Movingtarget
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09 Nov 2009 13:44 #132
by Movingtarget
The attached photo of Hell's Mouth was taken 5-6 years ago and looks similar to the photo at the top of the Audit thread. It's taken from roughly the centre of wall W3 looking NW where the trackbed curves round in a small cutting. You can also see the superelevation of the trackbed.
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Talking about Hell's Mouth, I think the extra wall to the SE is there because of the path to the beach. The path is shown on pre-WW2 maps and assuming it was/is a right of way, I guess the extra wall was there to protect it. Don't think I'd have gone for a walk there when they were firing though. I can't think of any other reason for it being there and no other range appears to have had a similar wall.
JohnG
Replied by Movingtarget on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
The well known photo of a turret using an MTR was actually at HM. (I'd like to see proof of this)
Graham
The attached photo of Hell's Mouth was taken 5-6 years ago and looks similar to the photo at the top of the Audit thread. It's taken from roughly the centre of wall W3 looking NW where the trackbed curves round in a small cutting. You can also see the superelevation of the trackbed.
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Talking about Hell's Mouth, I think the extra wall to the SE is there because of the path to the beach. The path is shown on pre-WW2 maps and assuming it was/is a right of way, I guess the extra wall was there to protect it. Don't think I'd have gone for a walk there when they were firing though. I can't think of any other reason for it being there and no other range appears to have had a similar wall.
JohnG
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- Peter Kirk
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09 Nov 2009 15:45 #133
by Peter Kirk
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
John,
I must confess I never noticed the other wall. It would make sense if that is a public footpath. Mind you, I suspect the beach was out of bounds in wartime.
I wonder if the turrets were restricted in their traversing as an over enthusiastic gunner could prove to be quite dangerous! What about richocets, having seen footage of machine gun bullets bouncing all over the place?
By the way, I believe your website that is partly to blame for my sudden interest in 200yd MTRs!
I must confess I never noticed the other wall. It would make sense if that is a public footpath. Mind you, I suspect the beach was out of bounds in wartime.
I wonder if the turrets were restricted in their traversing as an over enthusiastic gunner could prove to be quite dangerous! What about richocets, having seen footage of machine gun bullets bouncing all over the place?
By the way, I believe your website that is partly to blame for my sudden interest in 200yd MTRs!
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
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09 Nov 2009 16:03 #134
by Peter Kirk
All overseas MTR posts have been moved to the Overseas thread here
/community/showthread.php?t=3549
This thread is still confusing but hopefully all the information has been summarised in the Audits section. If anyone spots an error in the audits please post here it will be corrected in due course.
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
This thread is confusing enough without adding ranges overseas, I wonder if they could be removed and placed on a new thread?
All overseas MTR posts have been moved to the Overseas thread here
/community/showthread.php?t=3549
This thread is still confusing but hopefully all the information has been summarised in the Audits section. If anyone spots an error in the audits please post here it will be corrected in due course.
No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)
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- David Thompson
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09 Nov 2009 21:59 #135
by David Thompson
Youth is wasted on the young !
Replied by David Thompson on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
I visited this site at Low Skirlington on 11 October 2000 and the only remains were of the trolley maintenance building . My notes state that one of the walls was double brick reinforced and showed signs of being previously earth covered . I cant remember any sign of the track but the building was demolished shortly afterwards to make way for the Far Grange Caravan Park . I have some photographs of the site filed away...somewhere . I understand that the site was parented by Catfoss , apart from a short time by Driffield , and that there were some wooden accommodation huts on the site too .
On the same day I also visited a HAA battery at Ellerby and the bombing ranges at North Frodingham and Skipsea all of which had some extant remains...then .
On the same day I also visited a HAA battery at Ellerby and the bombing ranges at North Frodingham and Skipsea all of which had some extant remains...then .
Youth is wasted on the young !
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- carnaby
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10 Nov 2009 11:09 #136
by carnaby
Some info from my post #103 is repeated below.
Most gunnery trainers used a spotlight, or a pivoted model aircraft flying in a circle. Some used cine film instead of the spotlight.
Two notable MTR exceptions:
Trainer G17 - The Range and Relative Speed Trainer (Cottesmore): A standard model aircraft is moved by a motor along a railway track which approaches a gunner viewing the model through a modified reflector gun-sight. The track is calibrated in ranges, and the motor can drive the model at controlled known speeds. For exercises in relative crossing speeds, the model can be viewed at right angles to the track. Appropriate scenery surrounds the track (STC Paper No.32)
Trainer G31 - Turret Manipulation Trainer (Chivenor): 1/72nd model aircraft on model railway is a target for a normal powered gun turret. For use of live ammunition the model target may be replaced by large size canvas and and wooden model running on electric railway, as for example at Manby. Shortness of range does not enable tracer to be observed.
Source :ADM 1/18969 NAVAL TRAINING: Synthetic training devices used in the Royal Navy: 1942-1945. (Title is inappropriate - it is in fact a list of RAF training aids submitted to the Navy for their appraisal).
(Hint to would be researchers - many TNA descriptions are misleading. Prepare to be very disappointed, and elated).
Graham
Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite
Replied by carnaby on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
Find them, David!I have some photographs of the site filed away...somewhere
Some info from my post #103 is repeated below.
Most gunnery trainers used a spotlight, or a pivoted model aircraft flying in a circle. Some used cine film instead of the spotlight.
Two notable MTR exceptions:
Trainer G17 - The Range and Relative Speed Trainer (Cottesmore): A standard model aircraft is moved by a motor along a railway track which approaches a gunner viewing the model through a modified reflector gun-sight. The track is calibrated in ranges, and the motor can drive the model at controlled known speeds. For exercises in relative crossing speeds, the model can be viewed at right angles to the track. Appropriate scenery surrounds the track (STC Paper No.32)
Trainer G31 - Turret Manipulation Trainer (Chivenor): 1/72nd model aircraft on model railway is a target for a normal powered gun turret. For use of live ammunition the model target may be replaced by large size canvas and and wooden model running on electric railway, as for example at Manby. Shortness of range does not enable tracer to be observed.
Source :ADM 1/18969 NAVAL TRAINING: Synthetic training devices used in the Royal Navy: 1942-1945. (Title is inappropriate - it is in fact a list of RAF training aids submitted to the Navy for their appraisal).
(Hint to would be researchers - many TNA descriptions are misleading. Prepare to be very disappointed, and elated).
Graham
Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite
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- Movingtarget
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10 Nov 2009 22:26 #137
by Movingtarget
Replied by Movingtarget on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
Theddlethorpe Workshop Building
I visited the turret workshop (or armoury) 2-3 years ago and although still standing, it was in poor condition. Its overall measurements are approx. 87ft by 18ft in plan. Internally it has a central workshop area with folding doors to the front, with another room, or office, either side of the workshop area. The room on the North end of the building was divided into two after the war. There is a WC in the far corner of the South end side room with an external door.
Some other MTR sites I've visited have the concrete base of this building remaining (Dumfries, Hell's Mouth, Millon & Wigtown) and show buildings with almost exactly the same dimensions and internal layout, complete with folding door runners embedded in the concrete, post holes for the canopy supports and WC internals. The only key difference I've seen between Theddlethorpe and the sites above are in the construction of the building's walls. Theddlethorpe is built of brick and other types of blocks. Most of the other sites have bolts protruding from the concrete base which suggests a timber framed structure, possibly clad in wood or aspestos.
If, as I suggested earlier in the thread, that Theddlethorpe MTR was the first MTR built, later turret workshops may have been copies of this building.
Some photos - a view of the rear of the building, not dissimilar to the photo of Walney/Barrow in post 4 of this thread, though Walney looks as if the end rooms were missing.
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A view of the South end complete with door to the WC.
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A couple of shots of the front of the building showing the folding doors. Originally each of the 4 'bays' had the doors but post WW2 the centre two were bricked up. In front of the building was an area for firing the guns, the turrets being wheeled out on their special frames.
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This image is hidden for guests.
If still standing, the building at Theddlethorpe is likely to be dangerous to enter but that didn't deter the hundreds of pigeons that were present when I visited ....
As far as can be guessed from old maps and satellite images, where the workshop bases remain, they look to be a similar size to Theddlethorpe.
JohnG
I visited the turret workshop (or armoury) 2-3 years ago and although still standing, it was in poor condition. Its overall measurements are approx. 87ft by 18ft in plan. Internally it has a central workshop area with folding doors to the front, with another room, or office, either side of the workshop area. The room on the North end of the building was divided into two after the war. There is a WC in the far corner of the South end side room with an external door.
Some other MTR sites I've visited have the concrete base of this building remaining (Dumfries, Hell's Mouth, Millon & Wigtown) and show buildings with almost exactly the same dimensions and internal layout, complete with folding door runners embedded in the concrete, post holes for the canopy supports and WC internals. The only key difference I've seen between Theddlethorpe and the sites above are in the construction of the building's walls. Theddlethorpe is built of brick and other types of blocks. Most of the other sites have bolts protruding from the concrete base which suggests a timber framed structure, possibly clad in wood or aspestos.
If, as I suggested earlier in the thread, that Theddlethorpe MTR was the first MTR built, later turret workshops may have been copies of this building.
Some photos - a view of the rear of the building, not dissimilar to the photo of Walney/Barrow in post 4 of this thread, though Walney looks as if the end rooms were missing.
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A view of the South end complete with door to the WC.
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A couple of shots of the front of the building showing the folding doors. Originally each of the 4 'bays' had the doors but post WW2 the centre two were bricked up. In front of the building was an area for firing the guns, the turrets being wheeled out on their special frames.
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If still standing, the building at Theddlethorpe is likely to be dangerous to enter but that didn't deter the hundreds of pigeons that were present when I visited ....
As far as can be guessed from old maps and satellite images, where the workshop bases remain, they look to be a similar size to Theddlethorpe.
JohnG
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- Movingtarget
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10 Nov 2009 22:32 #138
by Movingtarget
Replied by Movingtarget on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
Theddlethorpe Turret Workshop - more
A couple of photos of the inside of the central workshop area.
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I'm not sure if the interior colours of the building are original, I suspect it would have been repainted at some point after the war. I was told that the exterior had always been green.
JohnG
A couple of photos of the inside of the central workshop area.
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I'm not sure if the interior colours of the building are original, I suspect it would have been repainted at some point after the war. I was told that the exterior had always been green.
JohnG
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- Movingtarget
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12 Nov 2009 16:12 #139
by Movingtarget
Replied by Movingtarget on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
From a 1945 plan of Silloth, it mentions three drawing numbers for the 200yd MTR:
The RAF Museum do not have copies of these drawings, has anyone come across them before ?
JohnG
- Layout Plan 300/40
- Store Workshop 301/40 (what I'm calling the turret workshop)
- Firing Shelter 302/40 (the building behind the trapezoidal wall)
The RAF Museum do not have copies of these drawings, has anyone come across them before ?
JohnG
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- PETERTHEEATER
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13 Nov 2009 07:31 #140
by PETERTHEEATER
Replied by PETERTHEEATER on topic 200 yard Moving Target Ranges
A 'snippet' re RAF Mona.
Whilst browsing through old Airfield Reviews I re-read an article by Roy Sloan which mentions that RAF Mona used a range at Ligwys Bay on the NE coast of Anglesey.
wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm?lat=5...0664&gz=15&oz=8>=1
He reports that there were two Quadrant Towers. Adjacent to the left hand quadrant was a gun emplacement mounting two Browning machine guns (presumably .303 inch calibre).
Once a week a group of trainee Air Gunners would arrive by lorry from RAF Mona and use the emplacement to shoot at floating sea targets.
Both quadrants and the gun pit have been demolished.
The range was obviously a bombing range and the gunnery practice an 'add-on'.
Whilst browsing through old Airfield Reviews I re-read an article by Roy Sloan which mentions that RAF Mona used a range at Ligwys Bay on the NE coast of Anglesey.
wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm?lat=5...0664&gz=15&oz=8>=1
He reports that there were two Quadrant Towers. Adjacent to the left hand quadrant was a gun emplacement mounting two Browning machine guns (presumably .303 inch calibre).
Once a week a group of trainee Air Gunners would arrive by lorry from RAF Mona and use the emplacement to shoot at floating sea targets.
Both quadrants and the gun pit have been demolished.
The range was obviously a bombing range and the gunnery practice an 'add-on'.
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