Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN

14 Aug 2020 21:53 - 15 Aug 2020 08:41 #1 by carnaby
Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN was created by carnaby


Why Enstone?

'The six Lancasters were kept in closed hangars out of view' However Enstone had only a single B1 and a T2 (the 1954 status has even lost the B1) It also wasn't generous with hardstandings (26 round and 3 loop)

I thought we had more info on this other than the Enstone Discussion , but can't find it

I remember an earlier report suggested the Lancs were housed 'on the far side of the airfield' (where there have never been any hangars). The existing B1 and T2 were also on the Technical Site - hardly the place for any secret activities.

Intriguing ;)

Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite :twisted:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bomber

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15 Aug 2020 09:38 #2 by Peter Kirk
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
"No official records exist" - hmm.

Whilst I can well believe the Lancaster was a choice for the atomic bombs I'm not sure why there are no records of the RAF unit. The obvious location for such a unit would be Canada where training could be easily kept out of the way, plus it was closer to theatre. Canada was building Lancasters so was well placed to help with modifications and extra fuel tanks.

Enstone sounds a very odd location with lots of crews passing through the OTU with flying both day and night. It wasn't a backwater. Someone would have noticed crews being posted to a mysterious squadron or flight as family historians are all over the unit records. Someone must have noticed and possibly recorded this.

My suspicion is that this may have been a Fortitude type operation to direct attention away from the truth and perhaps to imply atomic weapons were destined for German Cities? The black Lancasters may have existed as I believe an all black scheme was tried or considered for night bombing, after all many Mosquito night fighters were painted all black.

I didn't watch the whole video so didn't notice any sources in the bits I watched. Where did this come from?

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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15 Aug 2020 16:17 #3 by Ossington_2008
Replied by Ossington_2008 on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
This subject has been doing the rounds on forums such as "RAF Commands" "Britmodeller " "Key Historic" and elsewhere but nothing concrete has surfaced. I suspect one airman, full of beer "line shooting" new arrivals and the thought sticking in the back of someones mind. It is one of those stories, like Burmese Spitfires, that we all want to believe in. Why Enstone indeed.
I wonder if a Fat Man or Little Boy could be fitted and carried. Would make an interesting model...

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17 Aug 2020 08:23 #4 by IanDDavidson
Replied by IanDDavidson on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN

This subject has been doing the rounds on forums such as "RAF Commands" "Britmodeller " "Key Historic" and elsewhere but nothing concrete has surfaced. I suspect one airman, full of beer "line shooting" new arrivals and the thought sticking in the back of someones mind. It is one of those stories, like Burmese Spitfires, that we all want to believe in. Why Enstone indeed.
I wonder if a Fat Man or Little Boy could be fitted and carried. Would make an interesting model...


Before I start digging on this topic, has anyone checked the ORB's relevant to Church Enstone to see if there is any mention of the six Lancasters? Why 6? and Why shiny black?
If no-one has checked, I might start at the task, once my access is renewed, (I have already exceeded my free allowance for the month).

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17 Aug 2020 11:46 #5 by Peter Kirk
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
I wonder if those mystery Lancasters were assigned to MAP and not to the RAF? This might explain the lack of mention in official (i.e. RAF) records. Maybe one of those detailed histories on the Lancaster contains a list of users for every single Lancaster built?

If they were assigned to MAP then their true purpose would have been kept secret, although the Enstone thing is still an enigma, Boscombe Down or Farnborough would have been better for security.

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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17 Aug 2020 13:07 #6 by netcompsys
Replied by netcompsys on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
The Enola Gay flew from Tinian to Hiroshima, a point to point distance of 2526 km, so a minimum of 5052 km round trip

the B29 has a stated range of 5230 km and a ferry range of 5600 km

The Lancaster has a stated range of 4,073 km

So what part were the lancasters going to take ?

Figures from Wikipedia so you take your chances......

kevin

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17 Aug 2020 13:44 #7 by Peter Kirk
Replied by Peter Kirk on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
Were there safe parts of China to land or could they have been adapted to carry extra fuel? I suspect both options would have been planned for if this was a serious idea. I have not considered altitude as the bomb would require a high level drop to enable the aircraft to exit the area safely. The B-29 was better suited to this type of mission I suspect, despite the wing spar issue. I wonder if the Lincoln was proposed as it would have been available if the Far East war had continued into 1946?

Finally would the A bomb have been dropped at night or was that option discarded early on?

No Amount Of Evidence Will Ever Persuade An Idiot (probably not Mark Twain)

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25 Aug 2020 11:14 #8 by canberra
Replied by canberra on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
I read in a book on the B29 that the Lancaster was considered as an option to carry a nuclear bomb, but as it was an American mission there was no way they were going to have Lancasters used.

As for the colour, well I thought all RAF Lancasters were black anyway?

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25 Aug 2020 13:46 #9 by carnaby
Replied by carnaby on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN

As for the colour, well I thought all RAF Lancasters were black anyway?

Ah! these were Glossy black!
There was mention on the web of a photo of a secret black Lanc taken by Gordon Markham, the farmer at Enstone. This photo had been removed from the web page, but it was stated that it might be in:
Action Stations. Military Airfields of Oxfordshire by Michael J.F.Bowyer, or, Oxfordshire airfields in the Second World War by Robin J Brooks. (Hopefully someone can confirm).

I wonder how the farmer managed to photograph the secret aircraft which was always hidden in a hangar or flying,

Plan A is always more effective when the problem you are working on understands that Plan B will involve the use of dynamite :twisted:

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25 Aug 2020 15:40 #10 by dochertyt
Replied by dochertyt on topic Enstone's Black Lancasters - AGAIN
Not in Action Stations book.

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