Hawker Siddeley / BAe Harrier

I beleive that the USMC also had problems with the gun on their Harriers, I dont think they flew with them fitted in the first gulf war.

canberra;137169 wrote:

But it was slower than the GR3, had no guns and no built in camera!!!

The original design of the GR5 had a bay for a panoramic camera as a permanent fit, which would have made the recce pod unnecessary.
Apparently without consulting the Army, the Air staff decided that the Harrier should no longer be in the recce business. The army was not best pleased to be informed af the decision just before the GR5 entered service, which was not surprising as the role of the Harrier was close air support (of the Army). As a result down the line is that when the Harrier Force was deployed for Op WARDEN, the GR3 pods were resurrected ad the GR 5 modified to carry them. Later the LOROP pad came along to fulfil the WARDEN task.

Graham

canberra;137306 wrote:

I beleive that the USMC also had problems with the gun on their Harriers, I dont think they flew with them fitted in the first gulf war.

IIRC. the USMC had safety issues with the 30 mm Aden pods. The GR5's 25 mm Mauser pod was an attempt to address these issues.

Perhaps the "plumbers" can add more.

Graham

Graham wrote:

IIRC. the USMC had safety issues with the 30 mm Aden pods. The GR5's 25 mm Mauser pod was an attempt to address these issues.

Perhaps the "plumbers" can add more.

Graham

The GR5/7/9 gun problems was not so much the fault of the ac but with the 25mm gun and ammo not doing what it said on the tin. It became too difficult (time/cost) to fully develop it and, of course, aircrew needs/wants change periodically and they saw little need for it. The other problem (ac related) was that with the gun pods fitted, it was impossible to use the centre-line pylon because of lack of access and ground clearance. Remember too that the Typhoon was originally to have the 25mm fitted but the aircrew need fell away but was latterly resurrected with the 27mm Mauser now being fitted.

My impression was that many aircrew did want the gun - the problems I remember were gun gas concentration problems in the gun pods and of course the gun design was cr@p.
At 'Wet Through' (West Freugh) we used to take bets on how many rounds would fire before a jam - the record was just one round which also resulted in severe damage to the gun internals and (AFAIK) the gun was never airborne fired again LOL.

Superplum I dont know where you heard about the aircrew not wanting the gun on the Typhoon, all the fast jet aircrew Ive ever met said they most definetely wanted a gun.

The ADEN 25's problems were due to the use of percussion rather than electrically fired ammunition and the problem of light strikes was never satisfactorily resolved. The gun was said to have eventually been sorted but the belt drag imposed by the convoluted feed in the pod was never resolved by the time the whole thing was cancelled.

canberra;158788 wrote:

Superplum I dont know where you heard about the aircrew not wanting the gun on the Typhoon, all the fast jet aircrew Ive ever met said they most definetely wanted a gun.

I seem to recall that it was the aircrew hierarchy (policy/plans dept's) that opined that, not the real grow-bags - probably worried about cost-effectiveness. I also knew the then Support Authority at MOD who,despite his "gun" background, was not particularly energetic towards the 25mm.

The ADEN even in 30mm form was sensitive to belt drag which, by and large, was iinduced by poor installation design. The only way to really overcome it is with powered feed systems. Shades of the Lancaster tail turret feeds.

I think the retrograde move to percussion fired ammo was eliminate RadHaz risk to electric primers?

ISTR the 25mm calibre was because the Americans chose it for their GAU whatever they used in their Harriers, gun in one pod and the ammunition in the other in a linkless feed. You're right about the percussion primer and RadHaz, there was this story about a Harrier on deck loaded and the gun firing due to the radar on a nearby ship. The wiring in the gun acted as an aerial apparently and solutions were tested but not proceeded with.

Had the ADEN25 used electric primers I don't doubt it would have been as good, or bad, as the 30mm was. Unfortunately, apart from the first round of the burst, the energy to fire the round was derived from the forward velocity of the slides so any check could reduce the energy available to the firing pin.